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【中英双语】男女同工同酬?看国外网民怎么说

更新:2018-07-17 11:13:10  |  来源:转载  |  阅读:61
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And five retorts to help debunk them when the gender pay gap deniers are getting you down

当性别薪酬差距否认者让你失望,五大反驳可帮助揭穿他们

The gender pay gap was in the news again last week, after a report found that at the current rate of change it would be another 60 years before women are paid equally to men. This comes hot on the heels of another report, which found the amount by which men out-earn women has increased – especially in London, where men are paid 13% more than their female counterparts.

性别薪酬差距再次入榜上周新闻,报告发现以当前变动率,再过60年男女才将达到同工同酬。紧随另一份报告后本条新闻备受瞩目,该报告表明男性比女性收入更多的比例增加了——特别在伦敦,男性酬劳比女性同行高出百分之十三。

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Being a feminist can sometimes feel like Groundhog Day: whatever we do or say, we’re doomed to fight the same battles, over and over again. This is especially true of the equal pay debate. So to make the pervasive myths slightly easier to debunk, here are five retorts. Ladies, if the continued experience of being devalued is getting you down, you can always distribute this piece to pay-gap naysayers. Off we go!

身为男女平等主义者有时感觉就像过土拨鼠节:无论我们做什么或说什么,我们都注定要反反复复打同一场战役。这点在同工同酬的争论上尤其如此。因此,为了让这些普遍渗透的流言稍微更易揭穿,这儿列出了五项反驳回答。女士们,如果被人贬低的持续经历让你感到失望,你可以随时把这张反驳清单散给跟性别薪酬差距唱反调的人。让我们上吧

【注】:土拨鼠节即二月二日圣烛节。根据美国的传说,这一天土拨鼠结束冬眠第一次从它的洞穴里出来, 如果它看见自己的影子, 就意味着冬天将继续六个星期。

There is no gender pay gap

不存在薪酬性别薪酬差距

How depressing that we have to start with this one. And yet, needs must: a not-insignificant number of people don’t think the pay gap exists at all. These include Conservative Woman founder Laura Perrins, who appeared on Woman’s Hour with me last week and made this very argument.

不得不从这条开始真是郁闷。可是,要求让我们必须这么做:不少人认为性别薪酬差距完全不存在。这些人包括保守女性党创立人劳拉·派林,上周她在《女性时间》上与我同台并提出本论点。

【注】:BBC4频道的一档广播节目。

Alas, there is a gender pay gap, and if the studies I’ve already quoted aren’t convincing enough, there’s always the extensive study from the UK government charting the changes in the pay gap over time (in short, it hasn’t gone away). Or why not listen to those Andrea Dworkins at the Confederation of British Industry, who recently urged the government to impose a target on reducing the gender pay gap. Yes, I’m afraid that outside of a small coterie of fanciful libertarians and determined anti-feminists, the existence of a gender pay gap is accepted fact.

唉,性别薪酬差距是存在的,如果我引用的研究不足以令人信服,总可以看看英国政府的多方面研究吧,研究把随时间推移的薪酬差距变化(短时间内变化还未消失)制成了图表。或者,为何不听安德烈·德沃金们在英国工业联合会上的言谈,她们最近呼吁政府设立强制目标来缩减性别薪酬差距。是的,我恐怕除了幻想派自由主义者和坚定的反女权主义者小圈子外,性别薪酬差距存在是公认的事实。

【注】:安德烈·德沃金,美国激进女权主义者及作家。她以批评色情文学著称,反对强奸和其它暴力形式对待女性的情节。

The gender pay gap only exists because women have babies

只因女性要生孩子性别薪酬差距才存在

Let’s have a brief mythbusting interlude here to point out that if this assertion were true, it would still constitute discrimination against women on the basis of sex, which is unacceptable. But in any case, it isn’t quite true. I say “quite” because it’s undeniable that the time women take off to become mothers – often out of necessity because of maternity leave arrangements and childcare costs – has an enormous impact on wages. But according to figures based on the Office of National Statistics Annual Survey of Hours and Incomes, the pay gap between men and women in their 20s has doubled since 2010. Meanwhile, across the pond, an extensive study by the American Association of University Women revealed that the pay gap sets in a year after graduation from college. According to Professor Marilyn Davidson, co-director of the Centre for Equality and Diversity at Work, women are “more likely to be offered less [pay] when they start a job, which automatically puts them on a lower level”.

让我们穿插一次简短的流言终结,指出即便这种说法属实,它仍会构成以性别为基础的歧视,而歧视不可接受。但考虑到所有情况,流言并非完全不实。我之所以用“完全”一词,是因为无可否认女性休假当母亲的情况——往往出于产假安排和育儿费用的必要性——对工资影响极大。然而根据基于国家度时间与收入调查统计部的数据,20岁阶段的男女性间薪酬差距自2010年来翻了一番。同时,大西洋彼岸,一项由美国大学妇女联合会发起的多方面研究显示,薪酬差距是在大学毕业后一年内固定成型。据劳动平等与多样性中心副主任玛丽莲·戴维森教授所说,女性“刚参加工作时更可能[薪酬]较少,无意识地将她们置于较低水平”。

The gender pay gap exists because women aren’t as assertive as men

存在性别薪酬差距是因为女性不像男性那样果敢自信

The latest proponent of this myth is Liberal Democrat MP Jo Swinson, who recently argued that businesses often “unintentionally” create a gender pay gap because women aren’t as assertive as their male colleagues. I know, right? We girls just need to toughen up a bit. It’s not as though there’s a whole host of derogatory terms used to describe women who assert themselves. Oh, wait.

这条流言最近的支持者是自由民主党议员乔·斯文森,近来他主张因为女性不像男同事们那样果敢自信,企业通常“无心地”造成性别薪酬差距。我知道,对吧?我们女孩子只不过需要强硬些。这儿似乎没有一大堆贬义词用作形容肯定自身的女性。噢,等等。

I’m rather spoilt for choice as to how to debunk this one: whether to go for individual stories of women being punished for their assertiveness, or broad studies that show women are penalised when they exhibit the “tough” behaviour for which their male colleagues are praised. Sara Laschever, co-author of the book Why Women Don’t Ask, can have the final word: “We like girls to be nice, pliable, pleasant, accommodating, while boys are taught to be self-promoting, to be a little tough guy.” In other words, we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t.

我简直要被揭穿这条流言的众多选择宠坏了:无论是女性因其自信受罚的个人经历,或广泛研究显示出女性由于展现出“强硬”举动受罚而男同事则因同样的举动受褒奖。书本《女性为何不要求》的合著者莎拉·拉斯谢夫能强辩到底:“我们喜欢女孩子漂亮可爱、主见薄弱、亲切和蔼、殷勤顺从,又教男孩子要自荐自强,要当个小硬汉。”换而言之,我们照做了也要遭天谴,不照做也要遭天谴。

Women aren’t ambitious enough to pursue top jobs

女性没有足够的抱负去追求高级职位

Before we bust this myth, we need to talk about who decides what the top jobs are and how they are financially rewarded. Across the world, traditional, stereotypically female work is low-status and low-paid (think cleaner, childminder, nurse, beautician) and is often simply a version of the caring roles women are expected to undertake for free in a family environment. Many women want to break into traditionally male sectors (science and technology, construction and so on) but they have to fight for a place against deeply held prejudices once they have attained the practical qualifications. Besides, who says a scientist deserves more pay and prestige than, say, a nurse? If you ask this feminist, this is a case of the systematic devaluation of women’s social roles more generally.

终结流言之前,我们需要探讨下由谁决定高级职位的性质以及它们的财政报酬如何。纵览世界,传统的、典型的女性工作地位低下、薪酬微薄(想想清洁工、保育员、护士、美容师),常常是家庭环境中理所应当毫无怨言担负责任的贴心女性角色。许多女性都想要打入传统上男性主导的领域(科技、建筑等等),而一旦取得实际资质,她们便不得不在根深蒂固的偏见中争取一片天地。此外,谁说科学家就该比护士得到更多报酬和名望?如果你问这位女权主义者,这条流言更普遍上是女性社会角色一贯性贬值的情况。

Even so, women are as ambitious as men. They are just not rewarded for it (see previous myth for explanation). The US research organisation Catalyst, for example, found that among MBA graduates on a traditional career track, women are even more likely than men to seek out skill-building experiences and training opportunities and to make their achievements visible by asking for feedback and promotions. But, Catalyst concludes, “when women used the same career advancement strategies as men, they advanced less”.

虽然如此,女性和男性一样踌躇满志。她们只是不会因此受奖赏(参见前一条流言的解释)。例如美国调查机构Catalyst(触媒)发现,传统职业生涯轨道上的工商管理硕士毕业生中,女性甚至比男性更能找出技能发展经验和培训机会,并通过要求反馈和升职来彰显成绩。然而Catalyst断定“当女性采取与男性相同的职业发展策略时,她们的进步更少。”



国外网民评论翻译:

conanthebarbarian
11 August 2014 12:41pm
Recommend 586
586个赞
If the gender pay gap exists then where are all the ads for jobs offering to pay men one rate of pay and women a second, lower rate? If I go to be a shelf stacker at Asda they are going to pay the shelf stacker rate to me or to my female counterpart. The same amount.
Now, tell me where that analysis is wrong? It seems to me the whole "gender pay gap" is achieved only at the expense of a massive abstraction of data.
PS I'm happy to be shown logically how this is all wrong so please do that calmly rather than leary abuse.

如果存在性别薪酬差距,那些给男性一种薪酬,给女性另一种较低薪酬的招聘广告又在哪儿?如果我去阿斯达超市当卸货员,超市按卸货员标注付给我或我的女性同行工资,金额相同。
现在,告诉我那种分析哪里错了?对我来说似乎整个“性别薪酬差距”仅仅在牺牲大量数据概念的情况下才会实现。
又及,我很高兴从逻辑上展示这怎么是完全错误的。所以想反驳的人请冷静地反驳而非随便地猜疑。

【注】:阿斯达,英国第二大零售商,于1999年被沃尔玛收购。



Covenant conanthebarbarian
11 August 2014 12:44pm
Recommend 457
457个赞
If I go to be a shelf stacker at Asda they are going to pay the shelf stacker rate to me or to my female counterpart. The same amount.
Virtually all jobs, including shelf-stackers at some supermarkets - if not necessarily Asda - have pay flexibility. I.e. the manager/owner/HR can decide when someone is worth paying a little bit more.
When those decisions are made, men get paid more.
It's pretty simple.

(重复楼上的话)
事实上所有的职业,包括同一家超市的卸货员——不一定在阿斯达——薪酬有变动。换而言之,经理/业主/人力资源管理可决定一个人是否值得多付一些报酬。
当他们决定好时,男性报酬更多。



wavypeasandgravy
11 August 2014 12:42pm
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As a genuine question, can anyone provide info as to which industries the 'pay gap' applies? I've worked in payroll in the public sector for years and in no way do wages differ depending on gender.

作为现实问题,有谁可以提供关于行业“薪酬差距”的情况信息吗?我在公共部门管理了好几年的薪水账目,绝不存在因性别导致的不同酬。



Turnbull2000 Covenant
11 August 2014 1:27pm
Recommend 446
446个赞
It's largely rubbish. What you've come to expect from this 'sort', really.
No mention that the publicised pay gap fails to separate part-time and full-time work, nor (and most importantly) if they're doing the same job to the same level of capability.
That part-time women earn less than full-time men in different jobs is actually the basis for much of this nonsense.

这文章大半就是废话。你在期望“这种”,真的。
闭口不提公布的薪酬差距没分开兼职和全职,也没(最重要的一点)提及男女做同一项工作时是否有着相同的能力水平。
不同职业的兼职女性比全职男性赚钱少实际上多用这篇无稽之谈作依据。



CityBoy2006 Covenant
11 August 2014 1:34pm
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How is it an excellent article when some of the studies contradict claims made in the article?
I am not even sure Ellie has properly read the Department of Culture, Media and Sport study because it isn't particularly helpful to her argument that the pay gap isn't improving.

这怎么就成了篇优秀文章,还在某些研究反驳这篇文章提出的事?
我甚至不确定艾莉(本文作者)是否正确读完了文化、媒体与体育部门的研究,因为该研究对她薪酬差距没得到改善的论点不是特别有用。



JonAustin
11 August 2014 12:45pm
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In the UK the Graun has reported that professional women in their 20's are out-earning their male colleagues of a similar age. What's the truth of the matter? that the wage-gap only exists in non-professional roles? If so how do you compare like with like?

英国机构格劳恩报告称20岁阶段的职业女性比年龄相仿的男同事收入更多。什么才是事实真相?薪酬差距仅存在于非职业角色中吗?如果是,那你又怎么比较同样的情形呢?



LorddMUCK JonAustin
11 August 2014 1:20pm
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310个赞
In fact, there is compelling evidence that the pay gap (detrimental to women) is indeed a myth and merely reflects choices women themselves make with regard to work:
"The most important reason why women earn less than men is not that they are paid less for doing the very same work but that they are distributed differently among jobs and have fewer hours and less continuity in the labor force [...]
Those who reach the higher echelons in many industries and professions have typically worked not only long hours but continuously throughout a long career. Even the most highly educated women have chosen not to do that, with obvious implications for their incomes. While those women are the best judges of what suits their own individual circumstances, priorities, and sense of well-being, third parties looking at statistical data see only the artifacts of disparities based on paychecks."

事实上,有令人信服的证据表明薪酬差距(对女性有害的)的确是流言,不过是反映了女性本身关于工作的选择罢了:
“女性为何比男性收入更少的最主要理由不是同工不同酬,而是职业分布不同以及劳动时间更短、劳动持续性更弱[……]
很多干到行业和专业高层的人通常不止工作时间长,职业生涯也连续不断。甚至学历最高的女性都坚持不到,而这恰恰对她们的收入影响显著。女性才能判断什么最适合其个人情况、什么是优先事务以及幸福感,第三方只能看到统计数据的报酬上人为差距。”

Sowell, Economic Facts & Fallacies: Male-Female Facts & Fallacies, 73
So the construction of women as victims who are paid less is based on the misleading use of statistics which deliberately ignores consequential differences in behaviour.
To answer your question about comparing "like with like" if you look at pay rates once you eliminate the (consequential) differential choices that men and women make then the picture starts to look quite different:
The marital asymmetry hypothesis and specifically, child rearing, seems to be of huge importance here. And luckily, there is an easy way to test the importance of it; namely compare the wages of never-married women to that of never-married men. In 1982, never-married women earned 91% of what never-married men did. (12) In 1971, never-married-women in their thirties earned slightly more than never-married men (13). Today, among men and women living alone from the age of 21-35, there is no wage gap. (14) Among college-educated men and women between 40 and 64 who have never married, men made an average of $40,000 a year and women made an average of $47,000! (15)


《索厄尔、经济情况与谬见:男女性情况与谬见》73
将女性释为薪酬更少的受害者是基于数据使用的误导,故意忽视行为差别。
为了回答你如何比较“相同情形”的问题,倘若你看一下工资标准,排除(间接的)男女选择差别,那么图表看起来就完全不同了:
婚姻不对称假说,特别是育儿方面,在此处似乎极具重要性。幸而还有简单的方法来测试这种重要性;即对比未婚女性和未婚男性的薪酬。1982年,未婚女性收入是未婚男性的91%。(12)1971年,三十岁阶段的未婚女性比未婚男性收入稍微高一点。(13)今天,21至35岁的独居男女性间没有收入差距。(14)受过大学教育的40至64岁未婚男女中,男性年平均收入4万美元,女性则为4万7千美元!



FreedomFromHope
11 August 2014 12:48pm
Recommend 314
314个赞
But according to figures based on the Office of National Statistics Annual Survey of Hours and Incomes, the pay gap between men and women in their 20s has doubled since 2010.
The link within this sentence just goes to a gossip magazine article with a bunch of anecdotes from women who wished they earned more.
I'm not saying the statistic isn't true, I just wish CiF links went straight to the hard data rather than flimsy secondary sources.

然而根据基于国家度时间与收入调查统计部的数据,20岁阶段的男女性间薪酬差距自2010年来翻了一番(重复原文)
这句话里链接的定位就像八卦杂志文章,附带一串希望自己收入高些的女性的趣闻轶事。
我不是说数据不真,我只是想CiF链接直奔硬性数据而不是次要数据。



StVitusGerulaitis
11 August 2014 12:48pm
Recommend 291
291个赞
Besides, who says a scientist deserves more pay and prestige than, say, a nurse? If you ask this feminist, this is a case of the systematic devaluation of women’s social roles more generally.
Why are builders paid less than scientists? Why are miners paid less than racing car drivers? Why are computer programmers paid less than models?

另外,谁说科学家就该比护士得到更多报酬和名望?如果你去问这位男女平等主义者(本文作者),这就是更普遍上女性社会角色一贯性贬值的情况。
为什么建筑工人比科学家报酬少?为什么矿工比赛车手报酬少?为什么电脑程序员比模特报酬少?



termcap
11 August 2014 12:54pm
Recommend 292
292个赞
While I think that it is wrong to dismiss the gender pay gap out of hand, I do think that we need to establish exactly what we are measuring. Studies which compare average earning for men and women without accounting for e.g. profession, career breaks, full/part time statues etc. are not going to measure the impact of gender on pay. Where these things are controlled for, we get better data.
For example, the study linked states that "The widest gender pay gap was for the Skilled Trades Occupations. This category contains occupations such as plumbers and electricians, as well as chefs. There are a very low proportion of women working in this group, 11.3 per cent of employee jobs in Skilled Trades Occupations were women in 2013, and two thirds of those women were chefs / cooks. This is, generally, a lower paid occupation than the other jobs in this group, which is the main cause of this large pay gap. Median earnings for women working as chefs were slightly higher (1.6%) than men in the same occupation 2013."

我认为排除性别收入差距失控是不对的,我的确认为我们需要严格制定测量差距的标准。比较男女平均收入而不考虑例如职业、职业生涯中断、全/兼职状况等因素的研究,无法衡量性别对薪酬的影响。控制这些研究,我们能得到更好的数据。
打个比方,研究与政府结合“最宽的性别收入差距在于熟练工种职业。此类职业包括水管工、电工还有厨师长。从事该类职业的女性比例极低,2013年11.3%的熟练工种职业雇员职位是女性,而其中三分之二的女性是厨师长/厨师。一般情况下,与该类中其它工作相比这属于低收入职业,也是造成巨大收入差距的主因。2013年,女性厨师长的收入中值比同职业男性稍高(1.6%)。”

Is this telling us that women are paid less than men for the same work? Or that chefs/cooks are paid less than plumbers and electricians? I would think the latter, which means that in this case (from this datapoint alone), it is not clear that there is a gender pay gap (the deficit in men's earnings as cooks/chefs notwithstanding). However, if we looked at the earnings of electricians, and controlled for qualifications, full and part time status and years experience, then we would be closer to finding out the truth.
I don't doubt that sexism impacts on women's careers in many ways (and in some limited cases, on men's careers as well). However, I think that too often this discussion is based on bad data which does not compare like for like.

这是否在告诉我们女性比同职业男性薪酬更低?或者厨师长/厨师报酬比水管工和电工低?我认为是后者,这意味着在此情况下(单从该数据点上看),性别收入差距的存在尚不明了(尽管男性厨师长/厨师收入赤字)。然而,如果我们看电工收入,并控制资格、全/兼职情况、年长经验,那么我们将更接近找出真相。

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